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Re: [idn] domain/host name
- To: idn@ops.ietf.org
- Subject: Re: [idn] domain/host name
- From: Mark.Andrews@nominum.com
- Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 13:05:38 +1100
- Delivery-date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 18:07:52 -0800
- Envelope-to: idn-data@psg.com
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> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Mark.Andrews@nominum.com [mailto:Mark.Andrews@nominum.com]
> > Sent: Monday, March 06, 2000 12:01 PM
> > To: Dan Oscarsson
> > Cc: phoffman@imc.org; jseng@pobox.org.sg; dlee@icu.ac.kr;
> > idn@ops.ietf.org; iname@aptld.org; bill@mail.nic.nu;
> > konishi@jp.apan.net; kwu@yam.com; syhan@cclab.konkuk.ac.kr;
> > markk@netsol.com; zwh@cnnic.net.cn; chang@netpia.com;
> > tinwee@pobox.org.sg; chon@cosmos.kaist.ac.kr; bmanning@isi.edu;
> > kwu@yam.com.tw
>
> Is anyone in the CC list not on the IDN list?
>
> -------
>
> I don't see any clearcut definitions below. Do any exist?
Domain names:
RFC 1035: DOMAIN NAMES - IMPLEMENTATION AND SPECIFICATION
Section 2.3.4. Size limits
Section 3.1. Name space definitions
Host names:
RFC 952: DOD INTERNET HOST TABLE SPECIFICATION
ASSUMPTIONS 1.
RFC 1123: Requirements for Internet Hosts -- Application and Support
Section 2.1 Host Names and Numbers
Mail domains:
RFC 821: SIMPLE MAIL TRANSFER PROTOCOL
(RFC 1123 Section 2.1 should apply here also)
Mark
> If they do, can you please copy the (current) *definitions*.
> If they don't, can you suggest some *definitions*.
> It appears to me that each and every "RFC" has its own
> definition(s), or near definitions, on this, rather than
> referring to a common (versioned) document about this.
>
> Kind regards
> /kent k
>
>
> > > So what is the difference?
> > > For me a host name is the name of a host while a domain name
> > > can be the name of a host or of many other things.
> >
> > Not bad for a first level answer. For the second level you
> > need to remember that host names have a MUCH more restricted
> > syntax to domain names.
> >
> > Currently domain names have no restrictions on what is a legal
> > character (8bit). The only restrictions are total and label
> > lengths. Host names on the other hand are restricted to A-Z,
> > 0-9, "-" and "." case insensitive. "." is only allowed between
> > labels.
> >
> > I keep listening to debates about what is / should be legal in a
> > (international) domain name. Restrictions on character sets and
> > whether punctuation and control characters should be included.
> > Most of these arguements are really about what is / should be
> > legal in a international host name. I have made this plea once
> before.
> >
> > Please be careful to use host name when you mean a
> > host name.
> > Do not use domain name when you mean host name as
> > it leads to
> > confusion.
> >
> > Telnet uses host names.
> > Email uses host names or mail domains (these should both be
> > syntactically identical).
> > HTTP uses host names.
> > Traceroute uses host names.
> > hosts.equiv uses host names.
> > host.allow/host.deny uses host names.
> >
> > Personally I would like to see a similar distinction with IDNS.
> > i.e. any character in a international domain name, a very
> > restricted character set(s) in a international host name.
> >
> > Please remember that today we actually choose to use
> > domain names
> > that are not syntactically identical to hostnames so we
> > can avoid
> > accidental collisions with hostnames. SRV records
> > owner names are
> > done this way.
> >
> > Mark
> > --
> > Mark Andrews, Nominum Inc. / Internet Software Consortium
> > 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
> > PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET:
> > Mark.Andrews@nominum.com
> >
>
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> <TITLE>domain/host name</TITLE>
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>
> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>> -----Original Message-----</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> From: Mark.Andrews@nominum.com [<A =
> HREF=3D"mailto:Mark.Andrews@nominum.com";>mailto:Mark.Andrews@nominum.com=
> </A>]</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Sent: Monday, March 06, 2000 12:01 PM</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> To: Dan Oscarsson</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Cc: phoffman@imc.org; jseng@pobox.org.sg; =
> dlee@icu.ac.kr;</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> idn@ops.ietf.org; iname@aptld.org; =
> bill@mail.nic.nu;</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> konishi@jp.apan.net; kwu@yam.com; =
> syhan@cclab.konkuk.ac.kr;</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> markk@netsol.com; zwh@cnnic.net.cn; =
> chang@netpia.com;</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> tinwee@pobox.org.sg; chon@cosmos.kaist.ac.kr; =
> bmanning@isi.edu;</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> kwu@yam.com.tw</FONT>
> </P>
>
> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Is anyone in the CC list not on the IDN list?</FONT>
> </P>
>
> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-------</FONT>
> </P>
>
> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I don't see any clearcut definitions below. Do =
> any exist?</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>If they do, can you please copy the (current) =
> *definitions*.</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>If they don't, can you suggest some =
> *definitions*.</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>It appears to me that each and every "RFC" =
> has its own</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>definition(s), or near definitions, on this, rather =
> than</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>referring to a common (versioned) document about =
> this.</FONT>
> </P>
>
> <P> =
> <FONT SIZE=3D2>Kind =
> regards</FONT>
> <BR> =
> <FONT SIZE=3D2>/kent =
> k</FONT>
> </P>
> <BR>
>
> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>> > So what is the difference?</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> > For me a host name is the name of a host =
> while a domain name</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> > can be the name of a host or of many other =
> things.</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Not bad for a =
> first level answer. For the second level you</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> need to remember =
> that host names have a MUCH more restricted</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> syntax to domain =
> names.</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Currently domain =
> names have no restrictions on what is a legal</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> character =
> (8bit). The only restrictions are total and label</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> lengths. =
> Host names on the other hand are restricted to A-Z, </FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> 0-9, =
> "-" and "." case insensitive. "." =
> is only allowed between</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> labels.</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> I keep listening =
> to debates about what is / should be legal in a</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> (international) =
> domain name. Restrictions on character sets and</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> whether =
> punctuation and control characters should be included. </FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Most of these =
> arguements are really about what is / should be</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> legal in a =
> international host name. I have made this plea once</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> before.</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> =
> Please be careful to use host name when you mean a =
> </FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> host name.</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> =
> Do not use domain name when you mean host name as =
> </FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> it leads to</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> =
> confusion.</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> =
> Telnet uses host names.</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> =
> Email uses host names or mail domains (these should =
> both be</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> =
> syntactically identical).</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> =
> HTTP uses host names.</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> =
> Traceroute uses host names.</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> =
> hosts.equiv uses host names.</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> =
> host.allow/host.deny uses host names.</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Personally I =
> would like to see a similar distinction with IDNS.</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> i.e. any =
> character in a international domain name, a very</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> restricted =
> character set(s) in a international host name.</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Please remember =
> that today we actually choose to use </FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> domain names</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> that are not =
> syntactically identical to hostnames so we </FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> can avoid</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> accidental =
> collisions with hostnames. SRV records </FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> owner names are</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> done this =
> way.</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Mark</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> --</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Mark Andrews, Nominum Inc. / Internet Software =
> Consortium</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, =
> Australia</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> PHONE: +61 2 9871 =
> 4742 &n=
> bsp; INTERNET: </FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Mark.Andrews@nominum.com</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT>
> </P>
>
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--
Mark Andrews, Nominum Inc. / Internet Software Consortium
1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: Mark.Andrews@nominum.com