[idn] Re: Roll-out times

[Paul Hoffman / IMC <phoffman@imc.org>]

[[ Subject line changed due to topic drift ]]

At 8:21 PM -0400 8/30/00, John C Klensin wrote:
>Once we do i18n DNS names (directly or indirectly), there will
>be instant pressure to permit i18n externally-referenced file
>system names and, of course, email addresses.

Yes, but that's not what we are discussing here. We're talking about 
the rollout of applications, resolvers, and (if needed) DNS servers 
to handle IDN.

>   Assuming one
>accepts four years for browser versions

Which is absurdly long. Remember, we are talking about applications 
that are controlled by users or IS departments. If the user has a 
real need/desire ("I want to use IDNs"), they can be upgraded. No 
solution proposed in this WG so far has *required* applications to be 
upgraded if the user doesn't want to get to a host with an IDN.

The question is: if someone wants to associate themselves (such as 
through registration) with an IDN, how long will it take for 90% of 
the *target* users to be able to use that IDN? Non-target users (who 
might take longer to upgrade) are not an issue.

The users in countries whose primary script is non-ASCII will tend to 
upgrade faster (probably much faster) than the US and Europe.

>, what do you think the
>deployment rate is for
>
>* MUAs and MTAs and message stores ?

The MTA and the message store at the site using the IDN clearly will 
have to be updated before they can accept mail using their IDN. The 
MUA of the target users sending to that site will also have to be 
updated.

>* FTP clients & servers ?

Not a likely early target.

>* Telnet clients & servers ?

Unless I'm sorely mistaken, there is no need to update telnet servers 
for any changes in host names. As for telnet clients, they will be 
updated as demand grows.

>I invite you to dispute the figures I'm about to give but...
>
>- A large fraction of U**x systems are still running the
>original Berkeley FTP clients (and Windows 2000 contains, as far
>as I can tell, a clone of one).  20 years?

Easy to dispute. Just because they run those today, if IDN becomes at 
all popular, updated freeware clients will appear as popularity 
increases. Replacement FTP clients, many of which already exist and 
have been being distributed in Unix systems for years, will probably 
be updated within a year or so.

>- There are a non-trivial number of people (I don't know if it
>is anywhere near 10%) who started believing that "cat" was a
>mail reader back when uucp intersystem mail was introduced into
>U**x and who haven't changed their minds.   25 years?

I dispute your statement that they are a non-trivial number. How did 
you arrive at that? This has "red herring" written all over it. 
Clearly, there are still zillions of character-based mail users on 
Unix boxes, but they are most likely running Pine, Elm, or one of the 
Emacs-frobs. All can be updated easily.

If your criteria is "every possible application and server must have 
90% update before anyone will consider using IDNs", then, yes, all 
possible solutions (including a directory-based one!) will never get 
off the ground. A more reasonable approach is to assume that the 
chicken and egg will evolve simultaneously, just as they have for all 
improvements to any client-server application.

--Paul Hoffman, Director
--Internet Mail Consortium