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Draft Minutes
Here is a draft of the minutes from our meeting in Yokohama. Sorry
they are a bit late -- I was on vacation for the past two weeks.
Please let me know if there are any questions or comments. I plan
to submit then on Friday.
Thanks,
Margaret
XML Configuration BOF [xmlconf]
Monday, July 15th, 1300-1500
===============================
CHAIR
Margaret Wasserman <mrw@windriver.com>
DESCRIPTION
There is significant interest in the use of XML-based technologies
to manage and configure IP-based networks and networking equipment.
This BOF will discuss the high-level requirements for a network
configuration mechanism, and will explore how the existing
proprietary and standards-based XML technologies, such SOAP, WBEM
and SyncML, could be used to meet those requirements. Based on
that discussion, we will determine whether we should pursue any
IETF work in this area.
AGENDA
- Introduction and Agenda Bashing -- Margaret (10 min)
- Requirements Discussion
- Operator Needs
-- Weijing Chen (10 min)
-- Ron Bonica (10 min)
- Use of Metadata in XML Configuration -- Ray Atarashi (10 min)
- Requirements Strawman -- Margaret (15 min)
- Survey of Existing Technologies -- Margaret (15 min)
- SOAP
- WBEM & CIM/XML
- SyncML
- Juniper
- Conversion of MIB Data Model to XML -- Andy Bierman (15 min)
- Discuss Further IETF Work (35 min)
READING LIST
Related Internet-Drafts:
Concepts and Requirements for XML Network Configuration
http://www.ietf.org/internet-dafts/draft-wasserman-xmlcomf-req-00.txt
Towards XML Based Management and Configuration
http://www.ietf.org/internet-dafts/draft-goddard-xmlconf-survey.txt
Guidelines for the Use of XML within IETF Protocols
http://www.ietf.org/internet-dafts/draft-hollenbeck-ietf-xml-guidelines-05.txt
Network Management Observations
http://www.ietf.org/internet-dafts/draft-bierman-nm-observations-00.txt
Other Useful Pointers:
XML
http://www.w3.org/XML
SOAP
http://www.w3.org/TR/SOAP/
WBEM & CIM/XML
http://www.dmtf.org
SyncML
http://www.syncml.org/
JUNOScript
http://www.juniper.net/techpubs/software/junos53/
DISCUSSION MINUTES
Intro & Agenda Bashing:
No agenda changes.
Requirements Discussion:
Operator Needs:
Weijing Chen presented overview of his needs (see slides).
Summary: A common XML schema would allow disparate
backend systems to interface the networking
equipment in a uniform fashion.
Ron Bonica discussed his use of Juniper's XML configuration
facility.
Summary: The XML facility in Juniper is accessed through
a CLI front-end. Both the CLI server and the
XML server run on the box and communicate with
each other. Also possible to access the XML
server directly.
For more information about Ron's work with Juniper
products, see the notes from the Ops Area open
meeting.
Discussion: Questions raised about the assumption that
XML would be used for access to SNMP data. Does
SNMP really have access to all the data that is
needed, etc. A: SNMP is being used for these
things now, and XML would provide a more consistent
way to access it.
Use of metadata in XML configuration:
Summary: Ray Atarashi presented her research into metadata
and its applicability to configuration systems (see
slides).
Requirements Strawman:
Summary: Margaret Wasserman presented the requirements
strawman with an emphasis on open issues and
questions (see slides).
Discussion:
Question: Change notification is out of scope? A: no, it is in the
requirements. However, as few mwchanisms as possible need to
be built at once. Open for discussion
Comment: why use XML? Just to have XML inside? A: XML as a
data representation method has advantage to be human readable
and machine parsable
Comment: need to define first what is the problem to be solved
Rob Austein: At the IAB NM workshop requirements were
enumerated. On Thursday there will be a presentation on this
in the IAB Plenary
Dave Harrington: The SNMP framework document explains the
components of a management solution. This model can be used
in order to decide what XML can be used for A: Not the goal
to reinvent SNMP in XML.
Dave Perkins: Two ways of presenting the info - DDT and schema
Collin Jenings: Why would the solutions isomorphic with
SNMP? There are some other requirements that need to be addresses
such as revision control and change synchronization. Margaret: Can
you send details to the list?
Randy Bush: Agrees. Need for transaction model. Where does XML
give leverage over these items?
Internationalized strings - need volunteers to contribute to
requirements in this area.
Security - need to understand what requirements actually are.
Steve Bellovin: authorization and operational model needs to be
defined. What needs to be secured? Do we need object security,
or just transport security?
Randy Preshun: on previous point of transaction modeling -
draft-preshun-webdav... talks about a number of these
issues plus about security model.
Eliot - Many vendors do some form of XML configuration, they are
doing it differently, need a minimal level of interoperability
M: would like to start with the transport, but other people would
like to define a schema first
Eric: Why would it have to be XML data? Any data could be sent over
a secure channel. M: might be useful to put some formatting
so that a client do some diff-ing and know what pieces of info to deal
with. XML-izing the SNMP might be in the minds of some people
Peter Laufberg (runs a "small" network): want to talk to
network elements as a human being; also wants machine
language to talk to routers from management system; using
XML seems to do the job; make it secure
Harald - there are specifications to translate between languages.
This is not the issue. Focus on making the language useful for
configuration. Easy things should be easy, hard things should be
possible.
Dave Durham - using MIBs is polluting the data model because of
the lack of a transactional model
Sharon Chisholm: SNMP will still be used for monitoring thus need
to do some mapping between XML and SNMP
Will an XML data model be easier to instrument? To be worth-while
and gain acceptance, needs to be extensible and cheap to implement
Shy Herzog - nice to monitor things that we configure, configuration
needs to say if transaction is done, this is not monitoring by
transactional configuration
Comment: disagrees that configuration can be done the same for short
lived configuration and provisioning
Other data representation? - would be subject of a separate BOF
Randy Bush: Should be discussing schema,not transport!
[Discussion was cut-off to allow presentations to continue]
Skipped over survey presentation, due to time pressure (see
slides if interested).
Conversion of MIB Data Model to XML:
Andy Bierman presented ideas about this conversion (see
slides).
Discussion continued on whether to define a transport, define a
schema or do both. Further discussion of how/if XML helps to
make any of this easier or more useful for operators.
No consensus was reached during the meeting about how/if work
in this area should continue in the IETF.
Ran out of time, with discussion to be continued in the Ops
Area open meeting.
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