No Subject

["FDU - Sung Jae Shim" <sshim@mailbox.fdu.edu>]

2d$ba6ef3a0$37298ad0@mark>
Subject: Re: [idn] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-idn-vidn-00.txt
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 16:22:04 -0500
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Mark,

Thank you for your third set of comments on the draft. Please see below for
my responses to your comments.

Sung

----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Davis <mark@macchiato.com>
To: FDU - Sung Jae Shim <sshim@mailbox.fdu.edu>; <idn@ops.ietf.org>; Paul
Hoffman / IMC <phoffman@imc.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2000 8:37 PM
Subject: Re: [idn] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-idn-vidn-00.txt


> My comments below.
>
> Mark
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "FDU - Sung Jae Shim" <sshim@mailbox.fdu.edu>
> To: "Mark Davis" <mark@macchiato.com>; <idn@ops.ietf.org>; "Paul Hoffman /
> IMC" <phoffman@imc.org>
> Sent: Monday, November 20, 2000 18:17
> Subject: Re: [idn] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-idn-vidn-00.txt
>
>
> > Please see below for my responses to your comments.
> >
> > Sung
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Mark Davis <mark@macchiato.com>
> > To: DualName - ShimSungJae <shimsungjae@dualname.com>;
<idn@ops.ietf.org>;
> > Paul Hoffman / IMC <phoffman@imc.org>
> > Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2000 9:14 PM
> > Subject: Re: [idn] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-idn-vidn-00.txt
> >
> >
> > > However it is done, what you are talking about is mapping the letters
of
> > > each and every language on Earth into [a-z,0-9,and hyphen]. Korean
> Hangul
> > > has the marked advantage of being relatively rather simple to map to
and
> > > from Latin letters without ambiguity. There are a huge number of
> problems
> > > with this approach in general:
> > >
> >
> > Sung: Yes, VIDN maps the letters of non-English languages into [a-z,0-9,
> and
> > hyphen] that already exist in the DNS, in the same way that people in
> > regions where English is not widely spoken, currently create their
domain
> > names in English.
> >
> > Sung: No, I do not think that Korean Hangul is relatively rather simple
to
> > map to and from Latin letters without ambiguity. Please take a look at
the
> > example cited in email from Paul Hoffman and its corresponding sets of
> > characters in English. When we transliterate a person's name in Korean
> > Hangul into English, the possibilities may include:
> >
> > gimgyeongseog
> [snip]
> > kimkyongseok
>
> Korean Hangul *is* relatively simple. Many other characters from other
> languages are much more difficult to represent unambiguously.
>

Sung: Korean language may not be so simple as other languages with respect
to transliteration to and from English language. I would appreciate it if
you can provide some examples of transliteration between English language
and a local language that you think is more difficult, so that I can
demonstrate how the examples of difficult languages are handled in VIDN. For
the case of Japanese language that you have used as a example of difficult
languages, please see below.

> >
> > Sung: The focus of VIDN is not on the side of the many possible sets of
> > Sung: A huge number of problems you mentioned seem to be due to some
> > Sung: It would be nice for those who speak local languages to have their
> > Sung: VIDN does not need round-trip mapping, although it may be possible
> to
> > Sung: Without such standards, people speaking local languages have been
> > Sung: The same character or set of characters in a local language may
> > Sung: Again, VIDN does not need a round-trip mapping from English to
local
> > Sung: Please take a look at how those accented characters have been
> actually
> > Sung: Again, VIDN does not need a round-trip mapping from English into
> local
> > Sung: Please take a look at how those characters have been actually
> > Sung: Again, please take a look at how those accented characters have
been
> > Sung: VIDN does not need a round-trip mapping, in using domain names in
>
> All of the above was simply to say that VIDN will not do reliable
round-trip
> mapping. But if that is the case, then the user cannot type in
> [KanjiX][KanjiY].com, and get to a website where the location bar will
read
> "[KanjiX][KanjiY].com". The same for European characters. This would not
be
> acceptable.
>

Sung: With its one-to-one mapping scheme, VIDN does a reliable one-to-one
round-trip mapping. At the same time, VIDN allows using the same domain
name in both ASCII and non-ASCII formats, and so there is no need to
register domain names in non-ASCII format in addition to domain names
already registered in ASCII format. Regarding the one-to-one mapping, please
compare the following two from the perspective of users.

ACE:
Name in non-ASCII <---> ACE <---> Name in non-ASCII
(Only names in non-ASCII at both ends are intelligible and used by users;
ACE in the middle is not intelligible; Users have to create and register
additional domain names.)

VIDN:
Name in non-ASCII <---> Name in ASCII
(Both names in non-ASCII and name in ASCII are intelligible and used by
users; Users do not need to create and register additional domain names.)

Sung: Back to Japanese language you used. In VIDN, for example, Japanese
Katakana '#&*' (let's assume that '#&*' are Japanese Katakana scripts that
are pronounced as 'hoteru' in Japanese) is converted into 'hotel' in ASCII
format. Same for Japanese Hiragana and Kanji. Katakana is usually used for
transliterating English and foreign scripts into Japanese scripts, while
Hiragana is usually used for writing original Japanese scripts. Korean
language, Hangul, does not have such luxury to accommodate English and
foreign scripts differently from original Korean scripts. Kanji is Chinese
scripts used in Japan. Similarly, Korean Hanja is Chinese scripts used in
Korea.

Sung: I have already done feasibility studies of VIDN with several experts
in
Japanese-English phonemics and linguistics, and the results show that
Japanese language, including Katakana, Hiragana and Kanji, is much more
straightforward in following the principles of VIDN and so converting to and
from English.

> > Sung: VIDN provides more immediate and less costly solution to
> > internationalized domain names than other methods. For example,
developing
> > the testing version of VIDN for Korean-English conversion has taken only
a
> > few months. A couple of programmers have developed it with consultation
> with
> > several experts in Korean and English phonemics and linguistics. With
more
> > resources, the development process can expedited significantly.
> >
> > Sung: Because of its small size (e.g., the testing version of VIDN for
> > Korean-English conversion is about 800KB and the actual DLL file used
for
> > the conversion is about 250KB), VIDN can be easily embedded into user
> > programs that use domain names, such as web browser and client email
> > software. Alternatively, the knowledge base of conversion and the logic
to
> > process it can be embedded into operating systems as a library, so that
> > client software such as web browser and email software can share them.
The
> > user will need only the module for conversion of his or her preferred
> local
> > language into English. Again, there is no need to convert the
> romanizations
> > back to native characters for every language.
>
> Immediate and less costly? The translation from Unicode/10646 to LACE and
> back is a couple of pages of code and some data tables. Size: at most
about
> 50K total, and that covers all million possible Unicode/10646 characters.
> And that is for translation into and out of LACE. The check as to whether
a
> name is valid would be shorter.
>
> The cost of getting accurate transliterations -- for all letters in
> Unicode -- not just Korean; and apparently on a language-by-language
basis?
> Cheap?
>
>  I think not.
>

Sung: How about the time and costs required to create and register all the
domain names in ACE format, on the parts of users and the DNS? These time
and costs are not necessary in VIDN.

> >
> > > j. The process also lends itself to becoming completely and utterly
> > > politicized.
> > >
> >
> > Sung: VIDN does not need much of "the process," and so, I do not see any
>
> Quaint. You apparently have not seen the battles that people fight in ISO
> over simply the *name* of a single character, where that name actually
will
> never appear to users. Wait until it comes to deciding how to
transliterate
> Greek, Ukranian, or Azeri into English letters (without accents!)!
>

Sung: I am curious about how people speaking Greek, Ukrainian, or Azeri,
currently create domain names in ASCII without accents. If they do, I do not
see any problem in implementing VIDN for those languages.

Sung: We have already heard of the position of China as to the registration
of domain names in Chinese language, when some companies have tried to
register them using UCS encoding or keyword lookup schemes. I think it is a
real issue we have to resolve. In addition to the time and costs required to
create and register domain names in non-ASCII format, ACE or other similar
encoding methods may cause the "international" Internet to be segregated
into groups of local languages, since the domain names created under those
methods are accessible only in the respective local language, not in more
universal English language.

> > Sung: VIDN method is not only interesting but also working. But creating
>
> Working apparently for Korean. For all Unicode characters, for all
> languages?
>

Sung: Why not? Please let me know the reasons you believe it may not work.

>