RE: [Diffserv] RE: why i should like pibs

["Yavatkar, Raj" <raj.yavatkar@intel.com>]

[ post by non-subscriber ]

Brian:

This work got chartered more than two years back. The technical issue you
list was discussed at the beginning when existing alternatives had to be
listed and proposed work had to be justified. I am sure IESG took a look at
this before chartering the work.

We had discussion on this topic many times before and as Walter says, it
goes down to same supsects with same posturing. The fact is that real
vendors with real products see the need for this work.

I wish all the discussions and posturing at IETF (especially by IESG
members) was purely technical -- we need to address somewhere how IESG works
and how a single individual or two can hold up the work by many others.

Raj

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian@hursley.ibm.com]
Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 3:00 PM
To: Yavatkar, Raj
Cc: 'Weiss, Walter'; 'Randy Bush'; rap@ops.ietf.org; diffserv@ietf.org;
ipsec-policy@vpnc.org
Subject: Re: [Diffserv] RE: why i should like pibs


Let's try to stick to technical issues please, at least if
you want to keep the diffserv list on this thread.

The technical issue is: does COPS-PR have *significant* technical
advantages over the existing alternatives, that would justify
the added mechanisms and complexity?

   Brian

"Yavatkar, Raj" wrote:
> 
> Hi Walter:
> 
> Thanks for a really nice summary. I continue to be amazed at how Randy is
> applying a set of inconsistent standards to this work vs other work being
> done. Rob Coltun put the current state of IETF well in his departing
message
> -- I was hoping that would wake up IESG to move away from such political
> shenanigans to getting work done especially when vendors with products or
> implementations are working towards standardization.
> 
> Raj
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Weiss, Walter [mailto:wweiss@Ellacoya.com]
> Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 11:45 AM
> To: 'Randy Bush'; rap@ops.ietf.org; diffserv@ietf.org
> Cc: ipsec-policy@vpnc.org
> Subject: [Diffserv] RE: why i should like pibs
> 
> Randy,
> 
> I have two responses.
> 
> 1. Political:
> Why are you asking? Why do you keep asking? And more importantly why,
based
> on your criteria, haven't you asked for every non-monitoring MIB, or for
> various other works such as Policy Framework. I don't mind if we want to
> have a substantive discussion around the evolution of configuration
> management if you applied your own metrics consistently. If you believe
that
> none of these technologies meet's your requirements, then freeze them all.
> At least then there will be some pressure on all the parties to converge
to
> a common approach. Personally, I believe your question is a waste of time
> since the existing IETF process addresses your question when there is
> sufficient implementation to transition standards from proposed standards
to
> draft standards. Certainly there have been lot's of standards that have
> never made it past proposed for the very reasons you describe.
> 
> 2. Technical:
> Given your role, I would not expect you to use this PIB. The very argument
> justifying DiffServ is the same one that Operators use to manage their
> networks. Both share the goal of making the core of the network static and
> stupid (minimal configuration). By recognizing that the core should be
kept
> as simple as possible, we also all understand that removing complexity
from
> the core only moves the complexity to some other location: the edge. If
the
> edge must configure bindings of QoS, Security, Access Control, Tunneling,
> Usage Accounting, etc, this drives specific requirements that COPS-PR
comes
> closest to meeting. I could go into all the details here, but given that
> this thread inevitably de-evolves to the usual suspects and the usual
> posturing, I have serious doubts about the value of going into any more
> details.
> 
> regards,
> 
> -Walter
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Randy Bush [mailto:randy@psg.com]
> > Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 9:13 AM
> > To: rap@ops.ietf.org; diffserv@ietf.org
> > Cc: ipsec-policy@vpnc.org
> > Subject: why i should like pibs
> >
> >
> > wearing my iesg hat but being just a stupid operator, i am trying to
> > understand the pib/mib controversy.  fyi, i currently use snmp heavily
> > for monitoring devices on my network.  i configure using
> > large db-driven
> > code and spew text-based cli to the devices.
> >
> > let's assume i want to take the leap to a binary, as opposed
> > to textual,
> > configuration language.  i.e. for some reason(s) [which we will PLEASE
> > NOT discuss here] i decide to move from pushing text-based cli configs
> > out to pushing a binary format.
> >
> > hence, i would have to push my vendors to implement snmp/cops
> > writes for
> > all configuration aspects of all devices.  this would be big cost for
> > both me and for my vendors.
> >
> > why would cops/pibs be significantly better (remember it has
> > to replace
> > my current investment, so it can not be 'just as good') than
> > snmp/mibs?
> >
> > randy

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