Re: [idn] Re: IDNA problem statement

["Mark Davis" <mark@macchiato.com>]

> The problem with SC22 is that Unicode/L2 has infiltrated it, and
tries to
> sabotage the cooperation between ISO and IETF, by not having any

This is misrepresenting the situation. Certainly SC22 has not been
"infiltrated", nor has there been "sabotage". There are some people
from on a particular working group, WG20, that are in support of
Unicode, and there are others who are not.

But completely independent of Unicode, the real problem is that most
of the documents that were being proposed *to* the WG20 group (such as
the internationalization API, or 14652) for standardization were --
how can I put this most charitably -- of extremely low quality. Look
at the negative comments in
http://std.dkuug.dk/JTC1/SC22/WG20/docs/n857-n3261.pdf for examples.
TR 14652 ended up being a Type 1 TR: "when the required support cannot
be obtained for the publication of an International Standard, despite
repeated effort". The only reason, I believe, that it passed -- even
as a type-1 TR (not a standard), even with huge sections marked as
controversial -- was that a number of countries tend to simply vote
without bothering to actually read the text. The proposed
internationalization API was even worse: if a college student sent us
that as a sample of his work we wouldn't even bother interviewing him.

The one exception is ISO 14651. With a lot of hard work by people on
the WG20 committee, both those who support Unicode and those who
don't, together with the UTC, the collation standard has turned out
well. But even there, at this point the work would be better
transferred to SC2/WG2, which is where the linguistic expertise is in
ISO.

Mark

The above are my own opinions, and do not represent those of any
organization I am affiliated with.
__________
http://www.macchiato.com
◄  “Eppur si muove” ►

----- Original Message -----
From: "Keld Jørn Simonsen" <keld@dkuug.dk>
To: "John C Klensin" <klensin@jck.com>
Cc: "Keld Jørn Simonsen" <keld@dkuug.dk>; "Erik Nordmark"
<Erik.Nordmark@sun.com>; "Simon Josefsson" <jas@extundo.com>;
<idn@ops.ietf.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 05:06
Subject: Re: [idn] Re: IDNA problem statement


> On Tue, Oct 15, 2002 at 03:10:11PM -0400, John C Klensin wrote:
> > --On Tuesday, 15 October, 2002 18:37 +0200 Keld Jørn Simonsen
> > <keld@dkuug.dk> wrote:
> >
> > > On Tue, Oct 15, 2002 at 06:06:26PM +0200, Erik Nordmark wrote:
> > >> > I would still like it to be called the ISO 10646 repertoire.
> > >>
> > >> Doing that change to this added text would be very odd given
> > >> that that the rest of the document has no mention of ISO
> > >> 10646. Thus I think consistency is the overriding concern
> > >> here.
> > >
> > > Is that not a major change from IETF policy? We should mention
> > > ISO standards when they are applicable.
> >
> > Keld, this is an old argument in the IDN WG, and I think ISO
> > basically decided to lose it a year or two ago.  While, I, too,
> > prefer to reference ISO standards where possible, the situation
> > here is that the IDN effort needed both a character and code
> > point repertoire and a collection of norms about how those code
> > points were to be used, compared, etc.  My preference, and I
> > think that of the IETF generally, would have been to reference
> > ISO Standards for all of this but, as you know, the
> > complementary "usage" standards did not follow the code point
> > ones.  Even where TRs exist, ISO generally doesn't like having
> > its TRs referenced normatively.
> >
> > We approached ISO about the problem of the missing standards at
> > the JTC1 level and stressed that, if they couldn't respond
> > usefully and fairly quickly, we would have to rely on UTC.  We
> > didn't get a response for a long time, and then, in my opinion,
> > were brushed off.  And you are all-too-aware what happened when
> > we tried to work something with SC22... from my perspective, not
> > only did we not get active cooperation, we were deliberately
> > insulted by their "agreeing" to something we had previously told
> > them (formally and informally) we would not accept.  While this
> > was going on, the Unicode folks were actively working with the
> > WG, inviting IETF participation in their meetings and in
> > liaisons with on their Board, and trying to be responsive to our
> > needs in their ongoing work.  I think they are entitled to
> > recognition for those efforts, including having their preferred
> > name for the CCS and associated materials used.  And, if JTC1
> > wants to isolate themselves from the Internet in this area, and
> > to hint that they are doing so because the IETF is just not
> > important enough to deal with on a peer basis, I don't see any
> > reason to respond by advertising the relevant ISO Standard in
> > more than a footnote.
>
> Could you give me a reference to the approach from IETF to JTC1?
> As the liaison officer from JTC1/SC2 with IETF I cannot remember
> such a request, so I would like to see it.
>
> The problem with SC22 is that Unicode/L2 has infiltrated it, and
tries to
> sabotage the cooperation between ISO and IETF, by not having any
> cooperation being done, like delaying liaison or making it in a way
that
> is unacceptable. And also by having ISO standards in the area
> voted down, delayed, or turned into TRs. And then working smoothly
with IETF
> directly. Their policy sems to be efficient, and this is the
behaviour
> that you are rewarding, IMHO.
>
> > Just my opinion, of course.  But, if my analysis is correct or
> > rings true, the problem you are addressing needs to be raised
> > within JTC1, not in this working group or over these documents.
> >
> >     john
> >
>