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RE: Proposed WG Draft - draft-gmpls-ethernet-arch-00.txt



neil, 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: neil.2.harrison@bt.com [mailto:neil.2.harrison@bt.com] 
> Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 2:27 PM
> To: PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri; benjamin.niven-jenkins@bt.com; 
> lberger@labn.net
> Cc: dwfedyk@nortel.com; dbrungard@att.com; ccamp@ops.ietf.org
> Subject: RE: Proposed WG Draft - draft-gmpls-ethernet-arch-00.txt
> 
> Dimitri....see if this helps...in-line
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org 
> > [mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri
> > Sent: 25 January 2008 11:36
> > To: Niven-jenkins,B,Ben,DMF R; Lou Berger
> > Cc: Don Fedyk; BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS; ccamp@ops.ietf.org
> > Subject: RE: Proposed WG Draft - draft-gmpls-ethernet-arch-00.txt
> > 
> > 
> > ben 
> > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Ben Niven-Jenkins [mailto:benjamin.niven-jenkins@bt.com]
> > > Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 3:40 PM
> > > To: PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri; Lou Berger
> > > Cc: Don Fedyk; BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS; ccamp@ops.ietf.org
> > > Subject: Re: Proposed WG Draft - draft-gmpls-ethernet-arch-00.txt
> > > 
> > > Dimitri,
> > > 
> > > I find your mail somewhat puzzling.
> > > 
> > > You appear to be saying that GMPLS as per RFC 3945 is set 
> > in stone and 
> > > nothing should modify/enhance the behaviour as specified 
> in RFC3945 
> > > which implies that when RFC3945 was produced the crystal ball was 
> > > working extremely well and all possible future applications of the
> > > technology had
> > > been correctly envisaged.  I don't believe that was the case.
> > 
> > this is not what i say. i am concerned in stating beforehand 
> > RFC 3945 (GMPLS Arch.) is not applicable to Ethernet. Why the 
> > doc. does not deliver any tangible explanation.
> 
> NH=> Is your problem that you cannot differentiate between 
> the 3 network modes (of co-cs, co-ps and cl-ps)?  

my concern wrt specific point you bring is that the today definition in
RFC 3945 for L2SC, and in the present case GMPLS for Ethernet (with
local labels or domain-wide labels or any other equivalent to "co-ps")
does not result into a different definition than what's in. on the other
side, i do not see how would apply GMPLS for connectionless/bridged
Ethernet.  

note also that GMPLS induces label from the interface and link
characteristic (i.e. there is no "label type" in the label/label request
object.

> If so then looking at the work on
> unified modelling in SG15/Q12 may help you.  But to give a 
> more specific
> example here:  We can take an Ethernet traffic unit and 
> create either a
> cl-ps and co-ps layer network based on this...in fact one can image 3
> different layer network cases here:
> -	traditional Etherent which does not have a directed routing
> function, ie uses MAC learning, broadcast unknown, STP...this 
> is a cl-ps
> layer network
> -	Ethernet with an IGP providing a directed routing
> function....this is also a cl-ps layer network, but it is different to
> the one above
> -	Ethernet with a directed routing component (centralised or
> distributed, ie IGP) and a signalling component that can create
> connections....this would be a co-ps layer network.
> 
> These are all based on a similar traffic unit, however they 
> form 3 quite
> different layer networks (and in functional architecture 
> terms we would
> say 'the Characteristic Information is different in the 3 cases').
> 
> Now GMPLS is applying a reusable set of CP components (which is a very
> good thing, as Ben points out below) for any co-cs or co-ps mode layer
> network.  So we are setting up *connections* in either a 
> space, freq or
> time dimension of resource, and it is these 3 resource dimensions that
> create the differences in parameters...however, the notion of a
> connection is common across all these resource dimensions.  GMPLS does
> not apply to the cl-ps mode, as it plainly does not have connections.

well indeed, and this is the reason why i do not see any reason to
open the space for a different set of mechanisms that would result
from this new interface switching definition.

thanks,
-d.
 
> That is at least how I look at this issue.
> 
> regards, Neil
> > 
> > > > the question triggered by this poll is the following: if 
> > GMPLS for 
> > > > Ethernet is not inline with the existing stacks what is 
> > the value of 
> > > > GMPLS re-use ? what's the value to borrow the term GMPLS 
> > without its 
> > > > substance ? and in practice, the issue is, if it is not
> > > GMPLS per RFC
> > > > 3945, what's the value compared to any other native control
> > > stack that
> > > > would be developed at IEEE for inst. for these techno's.
> > > 
> > > If we ignore the peer model (which is unworkable in reality
> > > IMO), the value
> > > is obvious - significant reuse of existing code, techniques, 
> > > knowledge,
> > > skills, etc.
> > > 
> > > So, we should develop the control plane from scratch 
> > because Ethernet 
> > > requires a few modifications/enhancements (which I believe are 
> > > backwards
> > > compatible) to RFC3945 - that IMO is ridiculous.
> > 
> > so you seem to agree with me. departing from RFC 3945 makes 
> > little sense. it would have been interesting to see the doc 
> > delivering a FIT of the GMPLS protocol arch. blocks and, in 
> > particular, label allocation and distribution for Ethernet.
> > 
> > thanks,
> > -dimitri.
> > > Ben
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
>